Masters Tuesdays

I would like to propose that A category racers may participate in the Tuesday night races under the conditions that they are 35+ in age and are gear restricted to a gear around 70 gear inches.

Any thoughts?

Masters Tuesdays

I'd love to race masters nights. I would be fine with a gear restriction, but something more like 80". 70" is pretty small. I'll be there those nights with Jen anyway, and would hate to just sit around.

I agree that 70" is too

I agree that 70" is too small.

Somewhere around 88 or 90" would be more reasonable.

An 88 or 90 isn't restricting

An 88 or 90 isn't restricting anything.

For reference, a 70" gear at 120 RPM is 25 mph. At 81", 120 RPM is 29 mph, probably a more fair restriction.

Good point.

Good point.

masters

If a rider has been in the pro races they should not be in the tuesday night masters races. The tuesday night races where meant to increase participation of riders who might not want to compete at the wed night level. Allowing a more casual and safer atmosphere.

Yeah...totally

Yeah...totally understandable. I wouldn't want to see anything that decreased participation, and I like that everyone feels they have a place at DLV.

On the other side, it's not quite right to prevent folks from racing because they manage to stay competitive despite advanced age. I know people who are purposely delaying an upgrade to A for this reason. I don't know about other tracks, but road racing does not bar its highest categories from masters. People who can't hang always have cats 3 and 4 as options. Here we have B, C and D.

But, gear restrictions could level the playing field. I think the racing would be more fun for all with larger fields.

So, I can see both sides...and would rather not change anything if it upsets too many people.

It depends on what you mean

It depends on what you mean by "highest levels" for road racing. If somebody enters a UCI race, they cannot race anything masters for the year. I guess we're just lucky (or maybe masters are unlucky?) that there aren't more UCI races in the US.

You can enter a UCI race and

You can enter a UCI race and still race Masters, provided you don't place high enough to get UCI points. For instance, a former teammate of mine purposely placed 11th in a race, avoiding the UCI points awarded the top 10, so he could compete in Masters Worlds.

I know that's getting technical...and off-point...but I also know you like technicalities :)

True, but the intent is

True, but the intent is there. :)

I have no horse in this race, I've got awhile till it affects me any.

My opinion is that age limits

My opinion is that age limits should be enough - keep it simple. The Georgia Cross Series has been successful with this approach. You can race category or Masters 35+ or Masters 45+...and the masters classes are not segregated by category.

I look forward to trying to beat Chaz on Tuesdays!

Ok. Let's Race!

If "A" riders want to pad there season point totals by beating up on riders from the b and c's than Let's Race Baby!

it's not about points

i don't think anyone cares about the points. in fact, i hadn't even thought about that...and nobody else mentioned it either.

so, add a provision that reduces or eliminates points on masters night for A's.

plus, gear restricting them should prevent anyone getting beat up.

Actually...

Actually...

This came up in reference to UCI Masters Worlds and USA Elite Track Nationals as a few guys race both and use USA Elite Track Nationals as a tuneup for Masters Worlds:

"Are You Planning to Race at the Masters World Championships?

It has come to our attention that the UCI will be enforcing their eligibility rules at Masters Track World Championships that deal with Elite status. Therefore, we want to remind everyone that if you are planning on racing Masters Track World Championships, you CAN NOT race at the Elite Track Championships at the Home Depot Center next week. Anyone on the official start sheet for Elite Track Nationals will be considered an elite rider and will be ineligible to compete in the Masters World Championship."

http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=7070

Ah. Perhaps there is a rule

Ah. Perhaps there is a rule preventing participation in Elite National Championships.

The instance I referenced was in UCI Cyclocross this year. The racer did the UCI elite Cx race in NC and placed 11th, just out of the points. He then raced UCI Cx Masters Worlds in KY. Of course, he got 2nd place by three seconds...so maybe it was karma. :)

not karma...

it was not karma - it was iced ruts 3 to 4 inches deep that kept Thomas from winning! I was there!

Chaz - any Madisons this year? I will need a partner.

didn't mean to imply that

didn't mean to imply that Thomas didn't deserve to win....that came out wrong! i truly wish he had. love having nat/world champions from our area.

yes, i'm doing madison! let's chat offline.

danielb's picture

A simple request

I'd like to be able to race Masters (without gear limitation - unless you're going to gear limit everyone) and also A's. Others my age probably have similar competing scheduling demands like family and work, such that having another race day option would be very helpful and appreciated.

Would allowing A's to race in Masters increase participation and improve the quality of competition? Or would it reduce participation by demoralizing some Masters riders? Would it encourage everyone to step up their game?

Would excluding A's have unintended consequences mentioned by others like motivating B's to avoid an upgrade to A's? Why encourage anyone to game the system? What's the effect to A and B field sizes on Wednesdays?

Saying that excluding A's from Masters would allow "a more casual and safer atmosphere" is disingenuous. Aren't there fewer crashes in the A's? Isn't the DLV a pretty casual place regardless of category? It sounds more like "I want to race and compete and have a chance to win but I either don't want to have to race that hard or fast or I don't really want to have to get into race shape". Unless fields sizes for Masters races are large enough to be split into two fields, an A/B and a B/C/D, and enough time in the evening to run that many races, it doesn't make sense. I doubt there'd be enough riders and also think it would put too much of a burden on the DLV staff and volunteers. Excluding A's from Masters races is only a way to water down the competition, plain and simple.

-------------------------------------------
I don't know the answers to all of the above questions. Comparing DLV weekly races to Elite Nationals or Masters Worlds seems inappropriate. I didn't mean to offend anyone by the above statements which I haven't edited. I'm not trying to question anyone's talent, motivation or ability. I just don't see why DLV races should exclude A's from Masters races when we see this nowhere else, not locally or regionally in road racing or in cyclocross. If it's the decision of the majority or of the DLV board, then it's certainly to be accepted and respected regardless of my opinions.

Sweet Spot

He's right. What we have here at DLV is an arbitrary ruling excluding the top and beginner categories, creating a narrow age/ability category: Masters B/C 35+.

No other discipline sets up these exclusions for amateurs*. Cat 1's can race Masters road, cross and mtb. I raced Masters Cx this year, and had my ass handed to me. That's the way it goes. I still had the category race to compete against those more my ability.

Yes, you will occasionally find Masters divided into 1/2/3 and 4/5 when there are very large fields. This divides top and bottom...I have yet to see "sweet spot" exclusions like we have here at DLV.

So if DLV wants to have a narrow, unusual masters category, that's up to the board. I'm sure the few people currently served by this category like it..but don't expect to see that anywhere else.

* They do exclude pros. We had 3 pros at our weekly races last year (Oscar, Joe and Phil Gaimon ), none are >35.

cka1971's picture

As a C and Master

I think it depends on how you see the Masters Cat. It appears that the UCI says that if you race Elite, you aren't a Master. I like having a second night to come out and try to get better. I understand that an A who qualifies as a Master would feel slighted at only having one night to race. But the fact remains that the Cats are there to make the races competitive. A's racing with C's is by definition NOT competitive. So, if you over-35 A's want to come out and run full gears and shell the field, great. I'm sure you'll feel a great sense of accomplishment. I'd be all for a split masters field giving B's the option to race AB or BCD, but I'm not sure there are enough riders.

I also take some offense to the comment that the B/C Masters "want to race and compete and have a chance to win but either don't want to have to race that hard or fast or don't really want to have to get into race shape." I know I only have one season under my belt but I don't know who goes out there and dogs it. I raced hard and fast last year and competed and wanted to win and so did everyone else I saw out there week to week. I lost nearly 20 lbs over the race season and dropped my 200m time from well over 14 to a best of 13.4. I didn't do this eating bon bons and watching Oprah. The fact remains I still couldn't beat Chaz or Howard or even some newly upgraded B's like Lucius straight up (Well, maybe Lucius ;-)). That's why I'm a C. And this season I hope to move to B.

For track racing, it has

For track racing, it has nothing to do with UCI points. Or what it "appears to be." If the race is on the UCI Track Calendar, and you enter as an Elite rider, you are ineligible for Masters competition in THAT TRACK SEASON (as defined by the calendar).

Here's the technical

Here's the technical explanation I posted on FGF. As always, the rulebook is freely available and if you don't read it, you are, IMO, a fool:

I've had several of my riders ask me about this. Here's the skinny:

The USAC, once again, misinterprets the situation - although just the cause this time (they have the effect right).

The UCI rule states that for Master's eligibility, a rider cannot participate in any Elite races appearing on the UCI track Calendar.

This is not a situation of the UCI just deciding to enforce the rule this year - it's the first year (that I can recall) that the UCI included the US Elite National Championships on the Track Calendar. To my knowledge, they've never done this before. But they've always enforced the rule about Elite riders in Masters championships.

3.9.001 All 35 years old and older riders holding a license shall be entitled to participate in the UCI World Masters Championships, except the following:

I. Any rider who was a member of any track team registered with the UCI either in the current year or in the current season. The season is the period referred to in the second indent of article 3.3.003.

II. Any rider who has participated in any world championships, Olympic Games, continental championships or games, regional games, commonwealth games or world cup in the current year, except for the races that are open to masters only. (Note that this does not discuss National Championships)

III. Any rider who has participated in any other race on the UCI international calendar of the current year / season, except the races entered on the masters calendar. (This is where you now get bit)

Here's a link to the UCI track calendar:

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI1/layout.asp?MenuId=MTUxNjA&LangId=1

You have to select "All Competitions" in the first pickbox, and "2012" in the second, and then click "Choice" to get the full track calendar for this year.

Splitting the field doesn't

Splitting the field doesn't really work for Tuesday nights. D's can't race as masters, so a split would be AB/BC which doesn't really work. Plus, the women race with the masters and there's also Beginners and Collegiate racing that night, so having a 4th group wouldn't really work.

I know our races aren't national/world championships, but I look at the intent of the rule. Top riders can't race as masters. I don't see why that can't be extended to our racing. We already exclude beginners from masters, I don't see why excluding "experts" is an unfair thing either.

I do agree though, gear restrictions are not the way to go.

A or Master

I believe the EPVA is trying for the same result the UCI is. Either your a masters racer or an elite racer. The state championships, pro race series, and weekly racing should be raced in the same category for the entire season or if you upgrade you are no longer considered a master your an elite. I don't believe gear restrictions should be applied. Quite a few racers are faster in smaller gears than others and doesn't even the playing field.

For what it's worth...

Trexlertown has a large number of riders. Saturday afternoons is their Masters + Rookies day. On that day the fields are:

Masters 1/2
Masters 3/4 (sometimes combined with 1/2 if attendance is low)
Category 5
Women
Juniors

I think we got 3 races for each category plus a feature race (like an extra 30 lap Points Race) at the end where you win your right to race it or were invited.

whatever the outcome...

Whatever the outcome, I will see you all at the DLV in April - with my new racing age 55 game on... ;)

The Tuesday masters program

The Tuesday masters program is the way it is because the VOLUNTEERS that started it wanted it to be what it is when it was started. There is no "sweet spot". Category D is strictly for new riders, and is only a pass through category for riders to gain the skills they need to be able to start racing with the rest of our racing groups. It is purely skill based and not ability based at all. This discussion is great, and we appreciate ideas but if a change is to be made to the program, the EPVA board just needs a formal proposal for presentation at one of our board meetings so that we can discuss pros and cons of making any changes and be sure that we make the best decision for the velodrome, not just the B and C masters or A masters etc.

danielb's picture

Understood

Thanks Jeff. I didn't know it was always set up that way. I'll quit my bitching. But will you make an exception for a really slow A rider? Sorry, just had to ask!

After some thought...

...I'm inclined to let this go. I'd love to race as much as possible and join my friends on Tuesday nights. But, I also realize that the awesome atmosphere we have at DLV is due to the hard work, over many years, of people who came before me. These are many of the same people who set up Masters night the way it is now. The fact that I have a track to ride at all rests on their shoulders. If they want it this way, I can't comfortably argue against it.

In the end, it doesn't matter what any other track/series/governing body does. It's up to us to decide what we do here at DLV. Some of us do, and should, have more say than others. I'll defer to them.

Peace,
Chaz

"In the end, it doesn't

"In the end, it doesn't matter what any other track/series/governing body does. It's up to us to decide what we do here at DLV."

That is the key for us as a velodrome, we have every freedom to do what we want and set-up our schedule and racing how we want it. We are definitely not afraid to do what people want, listen to ideas and implement them, because ultimately the people who race are the people the velodrome serves. So keep the ideas coming so we can work on making our program/s the best that it can be.

Maybe this will help?

Instead of 2 more race days per month (as proposed in this thread) Super Saturday offers you guys 1 more race day per month:

http://www.dicklanevelodrome.com/pages/supersaturdays.html

That's awesome! Thanks for

That's awesome! Thanks for heading this up, Carleton.

danielb's picture

Yes

Carleton, you're a great guy, thanks for setting this up.

Thanks!

Carleton, I will make it down for as many as possible in support of your efforts at providing more great racing at the DLV!

Hey my racing age is 40 this

Hey my racing age is 40 this year, can we please change masters back to 40+? And require all masters racers to be bearded?

Please?

Don't be foolish

There are strict UCI provisions governing facial hair. Of course, they fail to consider hypertrichosis, but the intent is there:

69.0.001 All 35 years old and older riders holding a license shall be entitled to grow facial hair except under the following conditions:

I. Facial hair is not grown entirely in the current year or in the current season. The season is the period referred to in the second indent of article 3.3.003. (Note that this does not discuss hypertrichosis)

II. Any rider who has previously displayed facial hair in any novelty exhibition, alley-cat race, gold sprint, or Movember.

cka1971's picture

I'm so used to Facebook

I'm looking for the "Like" button. For the record, it would be for Carleton setting up Super Saturdays and for The Chaz's last post.

ckdake's picture

Rumor has it that Howard is

Rumor has it that Howard is interested in this so that he has an excuse not to ride on dirt on Tuesdays :)

(http://app.strava.com/rides/3980521)